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Daryl’s gain is turned up entirely too high for the entire episode, which is even LONGER than usual. In addition to our Megacon 2007 report, Clarissa reviews Animation Runner Kuromi, Gerald revisits The Venus Wars, and Daryl finally gets around to reviewing To Terra Volume 1.
There’s going to be quite a few links this week in the full show notes for once. Eventually.
Introduction (0:00 – 18:24)
Remember, we still have a contest going where the winner will get a 100% silver keychain of our show logo. Perfect for destroying lycanthropes.
We spend a lot of time pontificating about the whole “o” versus “ou” deal when it comes to romanization. Plus, Scott from GeekNights has a VERY IMPORTANT question that requires all of our powers combined to answer. Actually, no it doesn’t.
Convention Report: Megacon 2007 (18:24 – 35:29)
Megacon 2007 took place from February 16-18. Our convention report is about six weeks after the fact, and for that we apologize. Admittedly, Megacon is a multimedia event, and so anime-related activities are but a small subset of everything going on there. We apologize for failing to mention that William “Spooky Electric” Bradford won third place in the Barbarian Battles, but perhaps we are just highly bitter that despite Daryl’s endorsing him to be chosen as Planet Smoothie’s Cupman, he failed to emerge victorious. We will be editing this post to include links to several pictures taken at the convention, but for now, here is the horrifying pizza picture we warned you about:
There was no need for Daryl’s archnemesis/would-be doppleganger to spend months constructing an enormous Shinigami out of PVC pipe (aka Death Plastic), thus keeping her rooted to one location for the day. All that was needed to kill one’s victims was that pizza, which was given to her by a total stranger. PS: when she enters that Death Note lookalike contest, vote for her so we can take credit for her victory!
You know what else we don’t need? To use a flash or perform contrast/color correction on photos taken of Virgil for the entertainment of the Death Valley Driver forums. Next on the list: getting footage of The Iron Shiek raping B. Brian Blair “to make him humble.” Bryan Alvarez was ROBBED in that Sweeney match, and mark our words: the ICW ICWA Texarcana Television Championship WILL be rechristened the Frank A. Gotch Collar-and-Elbow Memorial Championship. After all, Larry Sweeney and William “Spooky Electric” Bradford are the same man.- This is pretty much what the entirety of Megacon looks like
- Even though it’s mainly a SF/comic con, there were familiar sights
- This schedule for the panels was posted in one place in the lobby, but neither it nor a map was in the con guide
- The Deviant Art meetup is exactly what we envisioned
- Clarissa said that the pizza picture is by far and away the most unflattering picture of Daryl’s archnemesis ever taken. That is incorrect, because that is what this picture is
Let’s News! (35:29 – 1:12:22)
There was no news last week, and now this week, the news is two news segments strung together such that this segment alone is the recommended length of an entire podcast. We covered a lot of ground and, man, I hope next time our news segment isn’t as horribly long, but, well that’s the nature of the beast.
Anyway, Media Blasters has decided to essentially shut down most of their non-yaoi manga line. Of course, this means that Daryl’s favorite porn ever, Apocalypse Zero, [Daryl: it’s not porn if you don’t draw the dick, and seinen is TOO CLASSY for that. Even though without his dick, there’s no way even Eikichi could hope to defeat Kakugo] is now no longer being published. This leads to a discussion on whether there’s much of a “fandom” for seinen at all and what this could mean for getting more manga here that’s meant for an older audience. QUICK, GO OUT AND BUY GOLGO 13!
On the subject of manga, many big deal manga artists have sued a site for distributing their manga. Coming from a country where manga is super cheap, this is pretty bad. There’s also an interesting interview with Mamoru Oshii online, however, because it takes too damned long for our episodes to come out, it now requires a free registration to read (Bugmenot might help). Also, Anime Classic did a great job on restoring the crazy MTV-like 80’s anime To-Y, so go watch it and try to make sense of it (hopefully the tracker will be up since it seems to be down as I write this)! CPM’s also in big trouble over releasing yaoi manga that the Japanese company claims CPM is distributing without authorization. Clarissa is happy that the titles might be moved to someone who doesn’t charge more to watch dudes be rude when she can get her equivalent DBR quotient for less money from other publishers, while Gerald isn’t cool with the whole “changing of a license overseas and the US publisher has to pay for it again.” We, of course, know nothing and maybe things will become clearer in the coming weeks.
Also, Bandai Visual, in a “planned failure” move, is releasing Freedom and Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honneamise (one of Gerald’s favorite movies ever) undubbed for horribly inflated prices. FUCK YOU JAPAN AND YOUR PRICING!
Want to see just how clueless Bandai Visual really is? Read their explanation for why they priced the DVDs the way they did. Didn’t everyone learn after ADV’s Kaleido Star debacle that the forum posters on Anime on DVD should all be completely ignored? At least, that’s the only place on the Internet where we could envision someone being STUPID enough to agree with this line of thought.
Promo: The Big Bald Broadcast (1:12:22 – 1:13:29)
Kyle Hebert is not only an anime voice actor, he’s a podcaster who’s been doing his show for longer than we’ve been around. We’ve just never played his promo because well, I don’t think he actually HAD one. This one is actually fan-submitted, and so we’ll forgive it for not actually mentioning Kyle’s involvement or stating the website. That’s what these show notes are for!
Review: Animation Runner Kuromi (1:13:29 – 1:28:07)
Who needs to cosplay for ego validation when we’ve got voicemails that do it for us? Clarissa tells us all about this 99% totally accurate and not at all exaggerated tale of working in the anime industry, as directed by Akitaro Daichi. Gerald cites this as one of the few anime to contain ska music, but Daryl cannot for the life of him remember any other music being used throughout this other than the BGM played at the start of the segment.
- Here’s CPM’s official Animation Runner Kuromi website. There’s a couple of excerpts from the interviews on the disc, as well as character run downs and wallpapers.
- The DVD for this will only cost you $5.99 from DeepDiscountDVD (shipping is free). The sequel is more expensive, at $10.87. It’s good, and it won’t rape your wallet. What more can you ask for?
Promo: Dave and Joel’s Fast Karate for the Gentleman (1:28:07 – 1:28:38)
Dave and Joel have also been podcasting long before we were on the scene, but Daryl likes to run around saying he put them on the map anyway. This is also a fan-made promo, as whoever made it and sent it to them forgot to remove the 2 minutes of BGM from the beginning. Personally, we were hoping that the bluetooth headset audio clip was going to be about beating up people while telling them to remove said headset, thus bringing everything full circle as their original promo was about beating someone up while telling them to remove their stupid hat.
Review: Venus Wars (1:28:38 -1:50:15)
For the record, we were not THAT late to play that voicemail about Transformers: The Movie being released on DVD. It had been out for a little while by the time he called in. Many people who remember Anime Week/Saturday Anime on the Sci-Fi Channel wrote in to us asking about this one, and so the task falls to Gerald, as he’d already reviewed Crusher Joe back in Show # 24. This is the final film directed by Yoshikazu Yasuhiko, and upon rewatching it and removing the haze of nostalgia, perhaps we’ll find out why that might have been the case. Incidentally, he also directed the anime adaptation of The Song of Wind and Trees, one of the more well-known of Keiko Takemiya’s works. You can get Venus Wars for about $10 on Amazon.
Promo: Chibi Tokyo (1:50:15 – 1:50:51)
Chibi Tokyo is like, the West Coast equivalent of Fast Karate for the Gentleman. Except in addition to Fist of the North Star, they also like Captain Tsubasa a lot. More people should listen to this podcast. In the time since this promo was made, they’ve actually added a third cohost, so perhaps they need an updated promo more than us! Be sure to listen to the two-year anniversary of Anime Genesis to hear their special commemorative song they composed and performed.
Review: To Terra Volume 1 (1:50:51 – 2:26:15)
The reason we don’t use ProTools is because we lack the competence to actually USE it properly. At least, Daryl does. Exhausted from having worked on crunch time schedule for the past two weeks, Daryl rambles and rambles AND RAMBLES his way through this latest offering by Vertical Inc such that this segment alone is the length of what a typical Internet podcast is. Fortunately, he’s got it together just enough to convey all the relevant information, albeit in a highly decompressed, roundabout manner. This is a sci-fi manga by Keiko Takemiya, but don’t make the mistake we made a few weeks back: despite being part of the Showa 24 Group, To Terra is technically a shonen work, which is what makes it so important. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
- Contribute to the AWO slush fund by purchasing To Terra…Volume 1 via clicking that link
- The brouhaha over Vertical’s mislabeling over To Terra (advertising it as shojo when it is not) is ancient news as far as Internet age goes. Here’s the Livejournal post from early January–over three months ago–that started it all and showed us that we were wrong in our assumptions that this was shojo because Vertical’s early marketing was off the mark.
- It’s not like we were the only ones taken in by this. Tangerine Dreams–a “shoujo” anime/manga resource–did it too, and upon discovering the mistake, wasn’t thrilled about it either. To use “shojo” or “shoujo,” that is the question, but it goes to show that even hardcore fans were mistaken on this. How could that be?
- The answer is that shojo, plain and simple, is not a genre unto itself. It’s effectively a marketing classification, so when the marketing isn’t quite on the mark, confusion results. Who benefits from that? Companies like Tokyopop, whose entire marketing machine is built around twisting definitions of things like “manga” to their own purposes, with the ultimate goal being to sell you “shojo manga” written by “DJ Milky” aka Stu Levy.
- Anne Ishii’s response to the matter is hilariously awesome – but she acknowledges the error regardless, and as a result no current marketing of To Terra states that it is shojo. Yes, New York Comic-Con took place a little over a month after this post and To Terra was still being marketed as a shojo title there, but we’ll cut them some slack since they probably had to print up all that stuff quite some time in advance.
- Mike Toole’s review of the long out-of-print Towards the Terra theatrical anime
- ANN’s page on the new Toward the Terra TV series that starts airing in Japan very soon and will probably be fansubbed by nobody since it’s a show we want to see – on the one hand, Norio Wakamoto as the narrator. On the other hand, Takehito Koyasu as Keith Anyan. Character designs by Nobuteru Yuuki; say, we met him and interviewed him!
- Slan: A Novel – by A.E. van Vogt, this was a notable inspiration for To Terra
Closing (2:26:15 – 2:30:59)
Next time, the theme is either robots or shows that seemed like they were going to be one type of thing going into it, but ended up being something else. Take your pick. Daryl’s reviewing Ergo Proxy, Gerald’s reviewing Megazone 23 Part 2 (DOGGY STYLE), and Clarissa will cover Hades Project Zeorymer.
What the fuck are you people talking about?
Clarissa, you girls are so emotional.
hahaha oh wow i was an episode behind and what the hell is going on here you guys
Ah, the good old “I’m not racists, because some of my best friends are…” argument.
Look, we have definitions for genres, just like the Japanese do. We’ll call To Terra sci-fi – because that’s it’s genre, ask any Japanese. In addition we have the Japanese demographic definitions that we can also use to describe the original intended audience that will give us some insight on it, what’s so difficult about that? Why do you insist on mixing the two?
And Clarissa brings out a very important point about hidden sexism (or racism etc) – because in many ways it can be even more dangerous than straight out hate. I mean, no one takes you seriously if you start sprouting out hate about who femi-nazis are here to take over the world – but making jokes about girls “being emotional” or “not being able to write sci-fi” (look, there’s a time and a place… and middle of a serious discussion about the subject is probably not the place, no matter how good your intention to lighten the mood or whatever is), or especially dismissive tone like in the original email can be much more damaging.
There’s already a big “boys’ club” thing going on in the anime fandom (and most other geeky fandoms for that matter) so it’s really easy to slide in to the “let’s make jokes about icky girls” mentality, even when you don’t wholeheartedly mean it – maybe it’s some kind of bent up need to feel superior or needed in expense of other people. All anime podcasts I listen to are guilty of it to a degree (some more than others), and I’m really loving the fact that Clarissa is finally calling the bullshit on this and it’s admirable that the boys are standing behind her on it. Most of the time it’s like pissing in the wind but sometimes it’s worth shocking people into making them realize what their behavior has become.
I would like to think that all you guys are in your heart of hearts nice genuine people who really believe in gender equality, please don’t prove me wrong. I’m fed up with it.
Oh, something else: Combat Unicycles? How about “Spiral Zone”? (I checked, but there don’t seem to be any staff in common between the two. I guess ‘unicycles with guns on them’ was just a common theme in the 1980s.)
In legitimate debate, arguments making sweeping general statements such as “the majority of” or “most people” or anything of that nature without reference to a statistic or study from a reputable source, causes said argument to lose all credibility and validity. Scott does this a lot. Definitely not Lincoln-Douglas here.
It was 2003. Ten years or more since I started watching anime in some form. I happened to know a large (100+) group of anime fans in high school by way of being the more prominent of their two anime club co-presidents. This was senior year and I had been in this club since freshmen year and knew and met many more than just the members I presided over personally. College students who were now past presidents, members, etc. I knew anime fans from other high schools and one anime convention called AnimeExpoNY. I’ve since met more anime fans here in college.
The majority of these anime fans (not the majority of ALL English speaking anime fans WORLDWIDE or even in the U.S. mind you, just the ones I’ve spoken to or met. My omniscient eye seems to be on the fritz) were serious and/or had more than a passing curiosity in the Japanese language and/or Japanese culture. Why? Mostly because of anime. We had Japanese classes in high school and here at my university and many of the students I’ve spoken to were anime fans wanting to understand their hobby as much as they could. To attain that dream of watching original anime without *gasp* subtitles. I’m included in this bunch.
These people know shoujo is a demographic. They understand shoujo includes more than the pink hearts and flowers that are indeed part of the sexist concept of what girls sensibilities are attuned to (or should be attuned to) here in the U.S. regardless of what U.S. anime and manga companies might be pushing. They know if they go to the shoujo manga section of a Japanese bookstore in NYC they’re likely to see a myriad of genres not usually associated with girls in the USA. They are not surprised to see these genres there because they understand what shoujo is. It seems we’re not the only ones contrary to the stories. ?????
If the majority of people in a particular country decide something is a certain way, then it is true… Hmm… sounds like great logic… if you like genocide. Or American football. Who else in the world calls this game soccer? But then, how many people voted for Al Gore again?
In any case, thank goodness for the ones who can bloody say that the damn emperor is naked.
Language is a living thing. The sounds and symbols that comprise the English word “red” refer to a specific color because the majority English speaking people associate those words and symbols with that color. If every English speaker in the world decide that the sounds and symbols comprising the word “red” referred to the color we now know as blue, and vice versa, then red would be blue, and blue would be red, regardless of what your outdated dictionary told you.
Sorry dude, but I have to take exception to that.
First, the core of your argument here is essentially argumentum ad populum — “most (or all) people disagree with you, so you’re wrong.” I’ll assume you already know some of the problems an argument based on such logic presents.
Second, you are correct in that language is a living thing, and that linguistic/lexical shifts do occur over long periods of time. However, your argument assumes that there is no significant difference between a historical linguistic shift, and appropriating a loanword from another culture (one that is still actively being used in said culture, I might add), distorting its original meaning, and insisting that the distorted meaning of the term is somehow correct.
This sort of thing is fairly common, but that doesn’t make it correct. Many (most?) people use “schizophrenia” to describe the so-called “multiple personalities” phenomenon, but in reality, Disassociative Identity Disorder/”Multiple Personality Disorder” isn’t even classified as a schizophrenic disorder — it’s a disassociative disorder. Should we give validity to this error simply because it’s a mistake a lot of people make? I wouldn’t say so, unless you want to completely devalue the meaning of language. There’s a difference between colloquial/slang usage and lexical meaning — the two should not be confused with each other.
Distorting the meaning of loanwords from other cultures was a lot easier to get away with before the advent of global communication. Today, in an age where we can converse with people from all different cultures on a daily basis, I think it’s somewhat irresponsible and self-serving to proclaim that a word means something other than its original definition simply because the distorted meaning is ostensibly more applicable or convenient to US, when all of us had access to the original definition all along. It’s indirectly stating that we know a better meaning for the term than the people who originally invented it.
In Japan, the sounds and symbols comprising the word “shojo” symbolize an intended audience of young females. In the English speaking world, the majority of people who associate the word shojo with anything at all associate it with a content genre. If you would like to change that, you are welcome to.
I think it’s reaching to say that most English speakers associate shoujo with a content genre. As Clarissa already noted, I very, VERY rarely come into contact with fans that are familiar with the term “shoujo,” and don’t know that the term fundamentally refers to manga aimed at young girls. They may recognize that many shoujo manga (at least in America) contain similar characteristics, and sometimes use those characteristics when asked to define shoujo. But prior to this argument, I have NEVER seen ANYONE attempt to sever the term “shoujo” from the demographic it directly refers to. And since I’ve discussed shoujo with more fans than I can remember, I would suggest that your blanket assertion that American fans see shoujo as nothing more than a “content descriptor” is a faulty one.
I really don’t care what the definition of the word is. I just use words, as most people understand them, in order to effectively communicate my ideas.
Not caring about the actual definition of words and desiring to effectively communicate your ideas are two mutually exclusive attitudes. Effective communication is taking care to ensure that your ideas come through clearly, regardless of your intended audience. It’s not using slang terms and vague turns of phrase, and assuming people will automatically know what you mean, just because “most people” (read: a demographic that may or may not actually exist) understand you.
As it stands, every anime and manga company in the US and the majority of fans disagree with you on the meaning of this word in English. Therefore, the ideas which I communicated to you are not the ideas you received.
You’re essentially blaming your audience for not understanding your communication, when in reality there are many ways in which you could have been much more clear as to what you actually meant in your letter. The first thing they teach you in any worthwhile communications class is that you often have to tailor your language depending on your audience. Sorry, dude, but when I first heard your letter, I thought you said things that sounded sexist too, and I wasn’t looking for sexism in your letter. Evidently you weren’t communicating your ideas as effectively as you give yourself credit for.
In any case, it takes a serious set of cojones to make an assertion like the one you make here. Last I checked, the anime companies used “shoujo” to denote any and all titles aimed towards young girls (and they market said titles accordingly). Many of the titles that actually get licensed may have similarities in content, but I fail to see how companies would place Godchild, Confidential Confessions, or They Were Eleven, or any number of other titles as “shoujo” if they were using it as a content descriptor in the same manner you were in your letter.
Likewise, most fans use the term “shoujo” in the knowledge that it refers to titles aimed at young girls. They may attach content terms to that definition, but it’s ludicrous to act as though most American fans have completely divorced shoujo from the demographic it’s meant to refer to.
As for the rest of this post, I’ll defer to Clarissa’s answer of the same.
Also, the color metaphor is a bad example. Anthropologists note that your culture can affect the way you perceive color. For example, in Japan, the color “ao” – which we translate as “blue” – actually includes some shades of the green spectrum. Some experts have even proposed that the concentration of melanin in your irises can affect the perception of color, although I’m uncertain of the veracity of this statement.
Regardless, color is a bad metaphor when arguing linguistic definitions. After all, a significant percentage of the male population is red-green colorblind. Just because they perceive a color in one way doesn’t mean they are right when they label it.
Proposal: shoujo gets used to mean the demographic as that is the meaning it has in the language and country that created the term. If someone wants to refer to the purported “American” usage, they shall use the term girly. If you don’t feel good calling various mangas girly mangas, then you must have some sense, and can, perhaps, refrain from gender-typing literature and art.
AWO:
Good podcast, even if I disagree with the Venus Wars review (folks buy this one!). Tho’ the crappy live action/cell animation mix reminds me of other early use of such effects by the Fleishers and Tezuka.
On the topic of shoujo:
My current fav shoujo manga is Banana Fish, originally serialized in Bessatsu Shoujo Comic.
I liked the rape metaphor, because as we all know… Rape is hilarious as a theoretical concept.
Okay, so I figured it out. Geek Nights is mad at you guys because you guys know more than they do (and also the rationalization that Clarissa is secretly hot for that dude’s cock because she’s mad at him just like a tsundere moe character?), and you guys are mad at Geek Nights because they’re mad at you for those reasons. That’s fair.
In typical form, GeekNights has made a gaffe, and rather than accept it, they’ve resorted to specious arguments and claims of persecution at the hands of a hysterical critic rather than owning up to it. Their ignorance on a lot of topics would really be more forgivable if they weren’t pompous asses who puff themselves up every chance they get. AWO called them on the bullshit anime sophistry they try to distribute as “expert commentary,” and they got what was coming to them; it was bound to happen eventually.
For extra hilarity, check the corresponding thread in their forums as some of the mom’s basement crowd attempt to talk intelligently about feminism. Yikes.
Anonymous said…
In typical form, GeekNights has made a gaffe, and rather than accept it, they’ve resorted to specious arguments and claims of persecution at the hands of a hysterical critic rather than owning up to it. Their ignorance on a lot of topics would really be more forgivable if they weren’t pompous asses who puff themselves up every chance they get. AWO called them on the bullshit anime sophistry they try to distribute as “expert commentary,” and they got what was coming to them; it was bound to happen eventually.
For extra hilarity, check the corresponding thread in their forums as some of the mom’s basement crowd attempt to talk intelligently about feminism. Yikes.
So true. I happen to like their podcast and don’t expect them to know everything but they’re very egotistical. It is just that impossible for them to be wrong. I honestly believe the momentum of this argument on their side is hurt ego. It would be a shame to lose listeners over something so ridiculous and they stand to alienate female listeners, in addition to knowledgeable males, if they continue along this vein of argument.
There is little to no acknowledgment of counter arguments made in their forums by females. Some of the males on the forums have sunken to simply insulting Clarissa. No intellect involved. “Bitch” and “crazy” and “needing cock;” the last refuge of the sexist male who cannot make a better argument against an intelligent or knowledgeable female.
And whereas the sexism inherent in Scott’s email may have been unintentional, some of the forum responses are definitely anything but. I would like to say the hosts are not encouraging this however the opener of Tuesday night’s (last night’s) podcast wasn’t on a much higher level either and the forum responses matched that lowness. They are classifying what Clarissa said as “hatemail” and disregarding her legitimate critique.
It seems tonight’s Geeknight’s podcast is going to center on this “debate.” Let’s hope it manages to be intelligent.
This is precisely the reason I stopped listening to their podcast months ago. I just couldn’t handle the arrogance.
Ugh, so much drama.
On a completely seperate note, Virgil actually sets autograph prices by how much of a mark a person is. He makes out pretty well because everyone feels sorry for Virgil.
To anyone who thinks Rym and I are egotistical or arrogant, I’m curious as to why you think so. I”m not saying we are or are not accurately described by those adjectives. I’d just like to know why someone who knows us only through our podcast would label us as such.
Because you guys label yourselves as such.
I think this whole issue is totally over-inflated. Especially when you get listeners involved. They’re obviously going to take the side of their favorite.
I honestly like both Anime World Order and GeekNights podcasts equally. And, frankly, this flamewar is retarded. Really retarded. Clarissa and Scott are not being rational in the slightest and that blind irrationality is spreading to their listeners, the people here and the people in the GN forums.
I’m really kind of ashamed of both of you guys, although I can’t pinpoint the exact reasons. All I know is that I obviously don’t know anything.
In situations such as this, I always ask myself: “What would Steve Harrison do?”
The answer invariably involves tin-foil hats.
I don’t want to know what you’re arguing about but it can’t possibly matter.
Oh, and I think that new To Terra anime starts tomorrow.
Gooberzilla said…
In situations such as this, I always ask myself: “What would Steve Harrison do?”
The answer invariably involves tin-foil hats.
I was thinking knife fights and sweeping dance numbers.
I am going to withhold passing judgment or saying things about who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong (not that I have no opinion, I do, I just don’t want to come down hard against one of my favorite podcasts). Instead, I shall comment on the rant. One thing that upset me about Clarissa’s rant is this: She assumed that simply because the manga-ka of To Terra is a goddess of shojo, if you will, everything she does must be shojo. I submit that JRR Tolkien, perhaps the best fantasy writer of the 20th century, worked on things that were wholly not fantasy-related, such as the Oxford English Dictionary. However, given the nature of the language issue as presented here, said Dictionary might very well be more fantastical than any of Frodo’s adventures.
I also bring to mind George Lucas. Before the release of Episode 1, George Lucas released good films. Just because Lucas had made good films (NOTE: I refer here only to episodes IV, V and VI of Star Wars, as I have not seen any of his other movies) up until that point, doesn’t mean that he was incapable of releasing Jar-jar. (TRANSLATION: Utter crap. See how I redefined a word to suit my purposes and all of you got what I meant? Language is a living thing after all)
As has been said many times on this page, both parties agree that To Terra is not shojo. If this is the case, why can’t the other issues be laid to rest too? In the words of Plato, “But can you persuade us if we refuse to listen to you?”, I would have to say that this issue will go nowhere, as it’s obvious that neither Scott nor Clarissa will cede any credence in the other’s argument.
I think the only way to stop this madness is to release another show.
anonymous:
“One thing that upset me about Clarissa’s rant is this: She assumed that simply because the manga-ka of To Terra is a goddess of shojo, if you will, everything she does must be shojo.”
Er, actually, that’s exactly the opposite of what happened–Vertical was the party that assumed “To Terra” was shoujo because it was done by Takemiya.
Kaze to Ki no Uta is being scanlated by Obsession. The first two volumes and most of the third volume have been scanlated. I really really really hope Kaze to Ki no Uta gets released here. I love it to death. My favorite character is Pascal. Right now I’m raising money to buy To Terra (Poor college student here). Keep up the good work AWO.
To anyone who thinks Rym and I are egotistical or arrogant, I’m curious as to why you think so. I”m not saying we are or are not accurately described by those adjectives. I’d just like to know why someone who knows us only through our podcast would label us as such.
Not to go on to a tangent too much about why I used the word egotistical but it is self explanatory.
If you know the definition that is.
Also, we are talking within the realm of both the AWO and Geeknights podcasts and the impression we as listeners get of the hosts and their podcast topics and any discussions that blossom thereof.
Why would we need to know you personally to discuss our impression of you in your capacity as one of the hosts of Geeknights?
Kaze to Ki no Uta is being scanlated by Obsession. The first two volumes and most of the third volume have been scanlated. I really really really hope Kaze to Ki no Uta gets released here. I love it to death. My favorite character is Pascal. Right now I’m raising money to buy To Terra (Poor college student here). Keep up the good work AWO.
YES! Poor college student here too but also a working one and by god I’ll find a way. And I’m going to look up those scanlations right now.
Excuse the double post please ^.^
Not to go on to a tangent too much about why I used the word egotistical but it is self explanatory.
If you know the definition that is.
A definition alone is not self-explanatory. It’s useless unless you point out what they did or said that fits the definition.
Also, we are talking within the realm of both the AWO and Geeknights podcasts and the impression we as listeners get of the hosts and their podcast topics and any discussions that blossom thereof.
Why would we need to know you personally to discuss our impression of you in your capacity as one of the hosts of Geeknights?
He wasn’t saying that you shouldn’t form opinions of him based on the podcast. He was asking what specifically led you to that conclusion.
I’m really curious about this, too, as a big fan of both shows. Several commenters, as well as Clarissa, labelled Rym and Scott as arrogant, egotistical, or self-proclaimed anime know-it-alls.
Now, I admit I haven’t listened to all of GeekNight’s archives yet (there’s a lot), but I’ve listened to most of the anime episodes, and I haven’t gotten the same impression. Could someone please point out some episodes that show this attitude? This is a genuine request, not a challenge. Even if you could just remember which anime they were talking about, it’d help.
I really want to know, because what I’ve heard is Rym and Scott flat-out admitting that AWO knows more about anime. On several occasions. Hell, that’s why Scott sent the email in the first place.
Also, even if they are arrogant, how in the world could that possibly offend regular AWO listeners? It’s AW-freaking-O. Every episode opens with the disclaimer “…rantings of holier-than-thou know-it-alls that are anything but.” Just scroll up and you’ll see the Daryl saying (in third person) On the Internet, Daryl Surat’s word is law and anyone who disagrees is wrong. So AWO thinks the GN guys like to wave their otaku cocks around? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
I don’t mind AWO’s attitude in the least. And they’re generally half-joking about it. But self-deprecating humor doesn’t mean they aren’t serious at the same time. They know they’re the most knowledgable anime podcast on the internet, and as such they have a right to be at least somewhat cocky. Fair enough. But again, how could you fault GN for similar (IMO, less) arrogance?
Now, while I haven’t seen it in the podcast, I’ll admit I’ve seen some of GN’s arrogance in the course of this arguement, from their continued support for their use of “shoujo.” Clarissa’s correct, and they admit that, but they seem to maintain that their definition the right one for use in the American manga culture. It’s unfortunate that they chose to push that particular point, because I feel they’re otherwise in the right. I.e., their incorrect use of shoujo doesn’t change the fact that Clarissa flew off the handle at an innocuous question.
They used the word in the way most Americans understand it. Okay, so it’s the incorrect use, but it’s so widespread that it’s absurd to think that using it in such a way is some huge offense. The Japanese definition, while correct, is useless. As Americans, we might as well do away with the words shoujo, shounen, seinen, etc. because they mean nothing to us. We weren’t in Japan when these works were released, how it is marketed in America is not determined by how it was marketed in Japan, and who it’s marketed to has nothing to do with the story. So why bother with them?
And why bother getting worked up over them? When you hear someone use shoujo incorrectly, just tell them “That word has nothing to do with the content. Never say it again unless you’re talking about how it was marketed in Japan.”
-Clay
Point of order:
Tinfoil beanies are only effective in keeping the sleep inducing mind control waves generated by companies such as Bandai and ADV at bay.
(yeah? you don’t think? Wait until ADV screws up the release of Sgt Frog and the apologists fall on their knees to suck their cock with “Well, at least it’s coming out, join us!” talk and you tell me that there’s not mind control going on!)
In the case of the Geeknights/AWO Great War I would tend to just laugh at the Geeknights folk, and otherwise ignore the whole thing. Trying to argue or convince only feeds the ego. They have views, in this case they are wrong, so what, move on.
And I think it was mentioned that Leiji Matsumoto (under his real name) was cranking out shojo manga for some time before the breakthru of Nishizaki’s Space Battleship Yamato freed him to just go nuts.
RE: GeekNights arrogance.
Specific examples? Holding a Worst Podcast Contest strikes me as one. Granted, they claim it was all done in jest and fun, but that’s just a disclaimer they slapped on there to cover their asses. They shredded that I Game podcast that was put together by elementary school students. Granted, no way in hell I’d listen to that show, but come on. They went off on those kids, and kids in general. They’re sixth graders! There wasn’t anything funny in their critique, just derogatory statements about little kids. Plus, a number of their reviews berated podcasters for having annoying, nerdy voices. Have they listened to themselves? Their high pitched cackling is the HEIGHT of nerdy voices.
They love to boast their ability to pwn in virtually any game or task they discuss. I specifically remember them talking about their total dominance at badminton during their childhood. Really? I somehow doubt that.
They treat things they either don’t like or know nothing about with complete disdain. They were overall very down on the New York Comic Con. I think it’s pretty clear since they admit to not reading American comics with any frequency, they are not the target audience for such a con. They were bringing their standards of “Yay, whee, let’s all watch anime!” cons and applying it to a very different situation. And when they came to that conclusion on their own, they still came down on comic fans, just not understanding why anyone would wait in those longs lines to meet a creator.
They also latch onto bits of information or intelligence they’ve gleaned from other sources and wave it around as a flag of “we’re smart!” Look at this comment section, the thread on their forum about this, and their episode covering it. Count the instances they repeat the phrase “straw man” in regards to the argument Clarissa made. Clearly someone listens to The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe podcast and takes note of the logical fallacies they describe.
Rym and Scott remind me of a few guys I grew up with and geeked out with until after college. They rise to the top of their own circle of geekdom (they ran their anime club, they are the ones who host their DnD group). Everyone starts to defer to them as leaders, and they believe they have an overall authority on what’s cool, what’s not. Anything they don’t get, don’t like is dumb, wrong and mocked. Because now they’re geeks with power.
The people who may have looked down on their geekiness years ago are either gone from their lives or can’t touch them anymore. They have the power now to arbitrate what is cool, and they do. In this “worst podcast” contest, they named Anime-Pulse. When they describe the hosts as the type of anime fan who likes the most shallow, horrible anime, one of them says “Now I know who to beat up at cons.” No fucking offense, dude, but I’d love to see how long either one of you would last in a real honest to good fight. Yeah, maybe you’re just joking, but you have a habit of being immature and talking shit you have no place to be talking. I’m assuming a bit much, but I doubt you could back that joke up with more than one punch before you got knocked on your ass by the Anime Pulse guys, one of whom I’m pretty sure served in the Army.
To Terra (TV):
I just watched the raw of the To Terra TV adaptation. I don’t understand Japanese, so can’t comment in depth, but it seems to be fairly faithful to the anime movie, which preceded (and was, itself, an adaptation of the manga described in this episode). The art work is pretty nice. They updated the character designs, but that didn’t bother me.
You guys thinkin’ about doing a podcast anytime soon? I mean, I know there’s a major flamewar goin’ on, and timeliness isn’t your strong suit, but really. What’s up?
Check out this thread on the GN forums for some hilarity.
http://www.frontrowcrew.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1855&page=1#Item_10
Link for above.
Ok, I’m really going to try to let this be my last word on this. I believe when a discussion gets to that point where we’re no longer discussing the subject but discussing the discussion of the subject, that it’s really not worth talking about anymore. I’ve already stated the same opinion in several different forms and well that’s the end of that. Others either agree or they don’t.
In response to Clay’s post.
Context. A word is self explanatory when taken in the context of the discussion. The context of this discussion is a disagreement about the word shoujo specifically as well as the Geeknights and AWO podcasts and hosts generally. I thought this was obvious. It was in this context that I used the word egotistical to describe Rym and Scott in their approach to the shoujo subject (Scott to a greater degree because it was his question and he’s more prominent in the discussion while Rym seems to just be backing him up) as well as to describe their approach to some topics within their podcast.
As for most anime fans understanding shoujo in a certain way, unless there are documented facts to back that up, it’s a flawed argument. Within the groups of anime fans that I have circulated in, that was never the understanding of the word.
I’ve listened to probably more than a quarter of all of Geeknights podcasts. But I’m not going to make a case study of this trait in their podcast. It would be a rather large task. Matt does a fair job of describing their general arrogance however.
I know arrogance and elitism and egotism. I went to schools and was involved in programs that foster those sort of traits in students. I’d like to think I’ve broken away from most of those ways of thinking, from looking down at the rest of the world.
A person can be proud without being a blowhard or believing they’re always right or better than others.
In any case, there are many things of worth within the Geeknights podcasts. Oddly enough, the hosts also remind me of a few people I hung out with back in high school, in a lot of ways. I take what I want from their podcast and if they annoy me, I just flick them off. They’re human beings after all. This inherently means imperfection whether they acknowledge it or not.
And that’s that. I’m tired of this discussion. I’ll wait for the next AWO podcast and listen to Geeknights and other podcasts until then.