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The news segment for Show #80 ran long, so here it is in its own separate file. Numbered #80b because most of you guys said you didn’t mind it in our online poll. SORRY, BOSTONIANS!
In this incredibly long episode of the news, probably the longest we’ve done yet, we talk about many things, most importantly DARKSIDE BLUES has been re licensed. Also in the news, Christopher Handley is probably going to go to jail for owning a comic book, you can read some of the details here, but be warned that the article, while well written was written by guy that might have some conflicts of interest.
We also get largely pissed off at everyone over the recent leak of an episode of One Piece which seemed like a case of lax security on Funimation’s part and general internet douche-bagery on anime fans’ part, and as soon as we thought this was all over, it happened again!
In other bad news, Shojo Beat is no longer accepting subscriptions. A magazine we all thought was doing well, but was probably like Pulp, the mid-90’s manga anthology by Viz that everyone seemed to like and no one bought. Let’s hope Otaku USA can avoid such a fate. In some of our rare gaming news Tatsunoko vs. Capcom has been set for US release. This gives us a bit of hope that non-Original Generation Super Robot Wars may get a release here, which is still incredibly unlikely (PROVE ME WRONG), but we still hold out hope.
Finally, as a warning to Kenta Miura of Berserk fame, Kaoru Kurimoto has passed away, thankfully, we understand that she actually finished the core of the Guin Saga story before dying, so there will not be another Wheel of Time issue.
In some other, far less impressive news, there will be more Yamato, time will tell if it’s bad or not, there’s some BGC movie, maybe happening which I won’t even link because we don’t care about this until filming actually happens, Japan’s ban on rape games will have no effect on anything at all, and Casey Rankin, the completely fluent English language singer of the excellent Orguss Opening and Ending passed away.
Here’s the terrific opening and ending:
Next time we continue with your horribly failed experiment of choosing what other people will watch, with Gerald’s episode. Daryl will review Kekko Kamen of Go Nagai fame, Clarissa will review Butt Attack Punisher Girl Gautaman (see a trend here?) and Gerald will arguably have the hardest thing to review with Fairy Squadron Yukikaze.
Wah, don't get sucked into the 'Left Vs. Right' game on this. Recall it was Tipper Gore who pushed the labeling of music and videogames to 'protect the children'.
wah, you said:
"In my manga club here in Japan, there's a lot of people who are into loli stuff, but they are some of the chillest, most normal people ever."
Well, we're back at where we started. I made a comment earlier about how creepy it was that an acceptance of loli pornagraphy ran throughout anime fandom, when many of the sane people in this thread agree that is gross and deserving of ridicule. Quite honestly, I don't know you or your standards, so your emphasis that people who get off on 2d kids are "chill" and "normal" doesn't sway me one way or the other.
I know perfectly well that it's not outright harming anyone, but that's not the point. The idea that "anything goes", and "who are you to judge" is always something that offends my rational sensibilities. Where do you draw the line? As long as it's not real, it should be defended? True, it's not hurting other people, but the same is true of self-harm and depression. While I agree that jailtime and fines are NOT the answer, might it be true that many of the people who enjoy lolita pornography are in need of psychological counseling? These sort of discussions NEVER occur, it just immediately becomes a freedom issue. And it's just my personal judgment that freedom without understanding or empathy isn't freedom at all.
I am talking in circles, and I don't feel I'm particularly adding anything to this conversation, so I understand if people are getting tired of my semi off-topic ramblings.
I don't get why certain anime fans need help, but it's "ok" for a guy like Von Brunn to have easy access to guns.
Perfect analogy, Anonmyous. I find the relentless "they wanna take our guns!" outcry just as annoying and irresponsible as "they wanna take our lolita pornography!" outcry.
Both narrow-mindedly focus on the freedom issue, and ignore the wider issues like moral responsibility and general psychological health.
"Fyana was a WOMAN, dammit."
But she's only one years old. Also Chirico is only 18 and I don't seem him as a cougar hunter.
But we all know Votoms is really about Chirico the young blue-haired boy getting molested by old men.
http://toyboxdx.com/phorum/read.php?5,195252
this comic proves it.
The problem at hand with trying to pass regulations on topics such as obscene imagery in comics and manga is this: Just because something disgusts you to the very core of your being does not mean that you should ban it or remove it from the world.
Whether it's lolicon, furry, or even something that is NOT pornography, it is very, very dangerous to restrict creativity and ideas, even if those ideas might be bad or unsavory ones. That is not to say they should be entirely unregulated, but that it should not be done out of irrational fear or impatient disgust. It should be looked at with a sound mind and a good understanding of the situation at hand.
The problem with people any sort of absolute moral high ground in such a situation is that they tend to believe that their own beliefs are infallible or that they will absolutely never be subject to the consequences of passing these laws. But that is what has people worried, that's what has anime and manga fans worried. Where do YOU draw the line? How do you even know you're the one who's behind that line? What happens if a law is passed and something which you once thought was morally allowable turns out not to be, and most importantly, it was something that existed purely in your mind or on a piece of paper you own?
Well beyond pornography, manga presents a lot of ideas that are very different from what we have in America. There is a lot of experimentation, a lot that stems from simply coming from a different culture with an even more different comics culture. Some of it may be considered morally reprehensible even in Japan, but the question I have to ask is this: Do you want fiction to be a reflection of what is morally right at expense of being able to portray what is morally wrong? Do you want to read fiction where characters never defy the rules or laws of society?
And while you might say that's different, that still comes from the perspective that you would not be affected by such laws, which is perhaps the most dangerous form of thinking of all.
I entirely agree with you, ogiuemaniax. Banishment is NOT the answer. My concern and curiosity lie in the fact that after anime fans admit that banishment is a careless response, the issue is dropped, as if the only response to lolicon pornography is the chorus line from "Diff'rent Strokes."
Make no mistake, we do agree that banishment/jailtime isn't any sort of appropriate response to simulated or depicted actions in drawn fiction, no matter how extreme.
I also have to confess I don't feel any panic or worry about the future of manga in America. I guess I'm simply not the "sky is falling" kind of worrier, considering that REAL child pornography, that utter reprehensible filth, has regularly popped up on websites like 4chan. No matter how illegal it gets, the people jonesing for the content will have it. The classic "slippery slope" heuristic doesn't bother me in this case either, since there isn't any manga I've encountered that is any more offensive than independant and international films I've seen, which as far as I know, aren't under any legal duress.
(I won't be offended if all of my posts are deleted. I have gotten a lot out of this discussion, though, and appreciate all the thought out responses.)
I think this topic is now spinning into a wider orbit than necessary, so I'll attempt to simplify…
It seems to me the basis of Milo's grievance here is the lack of any strong message to counter the defense of Loliporn, not a desire to see it banned or restricted.
Just as certain buzzwords are deployed to stop deeper thinking in its tracks ("socialist" is one we're hearing ad nauseum these days) "freedom" can be used the same way. "They hate our freedom" was one example intended to stop deeper thinking.
Here's how it's used in this case:
statement: Loliporn is disgusting crap consumed by pathetic people
comeback: Who are you to judge or censor? You can't take away our freedom
followup statement: _________
I think Milo is unhappy that no one has yet filled in the blank in any meaningful way. My question is, who cares enough about this issue to lead the charge? Honestly speaking, I don't. For that matter, I'm not even sure where the core debate is going on.
Maybe one of you is in a better position to pursue it.
Jokes aside, Andrew, Fyana IS actually a full-grown woman. Some recently-discovered background has it that she was chosen for the PS experiment and had her mind wiped clean as she was 'retooled'. Whoever she was before got erased from history. Spooky, huh?
Here's my proposed followup statement:
People who masturbate to drawn child pornography are in need of some sort of assistance. Now, what sort of assistance that should be, whether it should be forced upon them or optional, isn't particularly clear, but since anyone worth the air that they breathe already acknowledges that ACTUAL child molestation is wrong, having a fetish for its stylization is a curious and troublesome thing.
I would never respond to the knowledge that huge swaths of people ejaculate to the depiction of the robbing of a child's innocence by shrugging my shoulders, or by getting worked up about what it means for my manga collection.
There will be actual notes for this episode when Gerald edits them in, since as is the case for every news segment I do not have the notes.
For the record, I only delete posts that I determine to be spamming or grievously off-topic. If your post is a thinly-veiled cover for "check out my website" or is talking about an issue we didn't really focus on at the expense of the subject at hand, it's getting the axe.
Personally, I think that there exists a strong current of fundamental dishonesty among the moe/fujoshi horde regarding their true motives. Some are genuine in what they say, but I think there exists a substantial contingent of people that opt to hide behind the umbrella of "cartoons are ART, and art is free speech, and the second you start trying to limit free speech just cause you don't like what it's saying then THEY'RE COMING FOR YOU NEXT!" who REALLY just want to indulge their kinks. Left unchecked, the result of this is…well, read up on Mark Merlino sometime.
This umbrella is a necessary and proper one to have and maintain, for it's what stops Kekko Kamen from shoving her junk in your face. But at least own up to your agenda.
I'm with Daryl on the 'silent agenda' issue, there IS that whole thing of people who hide behind 'useful idiots' to promote an agenda, because the logic follows, the 'slippery slope' that seems to be the whipping boy of those that claim to be open minded but work to stifle (x) or (y)
(you think Socialist is being abused, Tim? try being openly Conservative.)
But there IS a slippery slope, there has always been.In the past it's been moderated by faith and logic and reason and common sense. "Well of COURSE nobody is going to want to marry a HORSE, we're not going to ban that in law, good lord!" and yet now, now, there are people who want to do exactly that!
What I have seen in all my years is an interesting truth. People who scream loudest about not judging people, especially THEM for what they want, at their core, in their deepest thoughs, KNOW what they do, what they want is wrong on some fundamental level and they DO fear judgment. Maybe not here, but on a higher realm. Even if they profess to not believe in God or a god.
They KNOW that spanking it to pictures of 8 year old girls is wrong.
Porn is like art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
manga with 8 year old girls with 100 tits growing dicks spewing all over is….not art, that's for sure.
anyway, I do think we can discuss this without any Left vs. Right nonsense.
Daryl, I think part of the problem is that, in the news story this episode details, one either had a choice of supporting the view that "this material is obscene, and therefore should be subject to prosecution and a lengthy prison term" (because that is what the law provides) or supporting the view that "this material is not obscene, and therefore not subject to prosecution and a lengthy prison term" (because that is what the law also provides).
The law in this case did not provide for any middle position, such as "I personally would regard this material as obscene, but don't believe someone should be prosecuted and sent to prison for it." That is, you *could* take that position, or some other position in-between, but it would mean nothing practically in this case, which is the matter at hand; in a sense, therefore, such a position is off-topic.
It may seem a ridiculous position to be in, but perhaps not less so than the constitutional protection smugly afforded the speech of David Duke and Fred Phelps, on the grounds that this kind of speech is "political" and "religious," and therefore in a class that is vital to public debate. So a hate-filled crowd screaming on a street corner need never have to justify themselves before a jury of their peers, merely for the content of their speech. But the person reading comics at home–well, now.
Sorry Daryl about the spamming but please don't delete my posts.
I wanted also say, it's not so much the banishment of lolicon manga that's the issue for me, it's that if you ban it, what would stop it from the next more severe getting banned. Is panty shots on a character that's less than 18 going to get banned? What about breasts just because they're too small or too big or that there just there in general? I DON'T want western world to dictate what Japan does with their media.
A lot of people that look at stuff like lolicon, or anything that borders on the offensive do so not much because it gets them off but that they know that it bothers people. It's a way to sort of be "bad" but without actually doing anything that harms anyone. Wikipedia's article on lolicon states that "lolicon for otaku is the most convenient form or rebellion."
BTW I ordered the FOTNS movie, Battle Royal High School, the Mazinkaiser with the other Go Nagai thing set, Cybernetics Guardian along wit all of Popotan. What does that say about my polar opposite tastes?
I call bullshit on lolicon being a form of rebellion. Rebellion implies some sort of protest. What specifically is pornographic drawings of presexual human beings supposed to protest?
This is not to say that the fictious depiction of the sexual abuse of children couldn't be used as a form of protest. It conceivably could. Take a look at the Italian film Salo: 120 Days of Sodom if you don't believe me. But I'm willing to venture that somewhere close to 99% of lolicon erotic art is intended as stroke material for pedophiles.
And if you're specifically seeking out this kind of material just to piss people off, and not because it fulfills some sort of sexual fetish, may I humbly suggest you find a more constructive hobby, one that couldn't result in federal obscenity prosecutions?
Milo, I agree that it's disenheartening to see anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish. But short of censorship or legislation, what exactly do you propose we should do about it? It's one thing to express our collective displeasure and suggest that pedophiles seek some form of counseling, but at the end of the day what else can we do?
"Porn is like art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
manga with 8 year old girls with 100 tits growing dicks spewing all over is….not art, that's for sure. "
Man, I don't know, that seems like such arbitrary reasoning for what people can classify as porn or art. It's way too exclusive of any overlap. Just because it's got graphic imagery doesn't really seem to make it porn to me.
I mean I (personally :P) wouldn't really be reading something like that specifically to get off, so to me, it probably wouldn't be porn. And depending on the context, say, if the character was set in some space where the graphic imagery of it's design were to to be juxtaposed with something to make a statement, why couldn't it be considered art? On the same line, a lot of people consider most comics that get lumped into the guro category porn too, but I think a lot of it shouldn't really be considered strictly such. You'd be hard pressed to say that it isn't offensive or obscene but to say that some of the works don't have any artistic merit seems as out there as this fictional character design you've described is.
I mean, taking a look at things that resemble mainstream porn closer, I know his name is taboo here, but there are plenty of Takashi Murakami's works that are pretty much porn. However, because of the context (or rebranding) or whatever you'd like to attribute it to (marketing genius) have pretty much been accepted by many as, "Art."
There is so much that depends on context like community (as mentioned in the cast) that it really problematic to judge it with any objectiveness, and even more so when you're trying to apply it to some sort of greater social mechanism like law.
The issue with obscenity is that what qualifies as obscene is by no means a fixed term and entirely up to the people setting the laws and making judgments at the time. One only need look at the number of films previously banned by the British Board of Film Censors and subsequently passed five, ten, or twenty years down the line to understand that ideas change (though I've still officially got obscene material as I brought over my uncut John Waters DVDs.)
Of course, the question is what do you do with your obscene material? I sure as hell don't jack off to the scene excised from the UK release of Pink Flamingos (that's the scene where two characters kill a chicken while fucking) but I do laugh at it. A girl with a hundred dicks sprouting from her tits? Not wank material in my book, and I don't see it. But, she's not real, so whatever floats your boat.
But then, despite politically being in line with the Conservatives these days (that's the British political party, the ones who are against mandatory biometric ID cards and support LBGT rights as opposed to whatever people in the US have hijacked the term), I do have some bits of dirty hippy still floating around…
Hey! This episode was released on my birthday!
I remember pulp, don't think i ever read an issue, but i remember in it. Most of it was stuff geared to older men, but then why was Banana Fish in there? I thought Banana Fish was Shojo? Could be wrong though.
Another issue to consider is that the US courts judged the material according to US bias. The prosecutor and judge, if not the lawmakers themselves, likely saw the material as "comic books" which to their minds are something that children read. Thus their whole approach to the case was biased. They were approaching the case with the mindset of judging the availablilty of the material according to what should be deemed suitable for children.
Takashi Murakami's statue "My Lonesome Cowboy." How far is it in content, exactly, from manga called "obscene"? On the contrary, however, there was no prosecution of the artist, or the galleries that displayed it, or, presumably, of the person who bought it, for $13.5 million dollars.
http://shapeandcolour.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/murakamis-my-lonesome-cowboy-15-million/
The $15 million? That was counting the auction house's fee. By the way, this auction didn't occur in that depraved land known as Japan. It happened in the United States, which, the last time I checked, is under federal jurisdiction. The person who ordered some manga to read at home, however–
If we're having trouble with seeing art in either of these two cases, can we perhaps at least put aside our artistic debates and psychological theories…and see something more simple–a case of vile injustice? Vile, because it is happening in reality. I'm one of those strange people whose outrage is provoked more by reality than fantasy. There must be something wrong with me.
Gooberzilla, that was my point about the reality of anime fandom. Go to a convention and see the tens of thousands of real anime fans (I mean real in the sense of "how they act in real life"), and you're not going to see "anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish," unless glomping is a fetish. You're not going to see panels and programming schedules dominated by disturbing fetishes; they're going to be about the new FMA series and how to build prop swords for costumes.
And, as I said, the kind of people (i.e., teenagers) who populate cons now are precisely the ones who grew up with the internet, where one can indulge in nothing but disturbing things, if one wishes. But that isn't the kind of fandom they chose to build in reality–a phrase I seem to keep repeating here, in reality, in reality. As opposed to on the internet, or in manga.
"Milo, I agree that it's disheartening to see anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish. But short of censorship or legislation, what exactly do you propose we should do about it?"
I think you've hit on the dilemma that caused me to spend so much time in this thread. At the end of the day, there isn't really a thing we can do about it.
And yet, the fact that I've been running into nothing but short-sighted and naive rambling on the sanctity of lolicon pornography everywhere (else) that I visit for anime news leaves me intensely dissatisfied. Was I naively expecting more from the collective community? Probably so.
Maybe if I simply reread a few of the posts in this thread a few times, I'll feel less like the one-eyed man and more like a member of a rational, but relatively quiet, contingency.
(And the fact that the majority of anime con attendees dress up as G-rated Naruto characters doesn't make me feel any better. It would almost be irrelevant, if it wasn't for the ironic fact that I've seen and heard about the varying levels of disturbing Naruto doujinshi that exists…)
But we also have to look at what the media decides to focus on. I'm gonna make Daryl heave a mighty sigh with what's coming up.
You CANNOT ignore the playbooks, the embedded action line that is the collective opinion of the media. They're still stuck in 'Violent Porn Toons from Japan' as the action line. So you get a crew shooting b-roll at a con, what's gonna get used? Since there's nothing as 'standardized' as Klingons or Stormtroopers, they'll use the pics of a. attractive girls in goth/loli or maid gear, b. the MGS cosplayers with the guns and camo, and c. anybody posing with a sword.
Violent Porn Toons.
It's the Biff! Bam! Pow! Comics aren't for kids anymore! thinking every time some graphic novel breaks out a little.
And thus, this guy fits the template. Doesn't MATTER that the average con contains 99% innocent teens (altho of course, fully able to be asshats in their own special ways), that's not gonna be SHOWN.
Just remember that. It's still all violent porn toons to the mass media. Just like 1988.
Absolutely, Carl, I completely agree with you. No person should be imprisoned for owning a work of fiction. I don't care how vile or repugnant it may be to my sensibilities or the tastes of the community. Offended sensibilities are not a weighty enough justification to sieze the offender's property, remove their freedom, lock them away in a cell, and brand them with a criminal record for the rest of their life.
Milo, I think your assessment of "people who look at 2-Dimensional lolita pornography need therapy" is misguided because a lot of us have no interest in real children at all. I sure don't. I do, however, like cute, 2D characters, and as such I do buy erotic doujinshi and magazines featuring such characters. Most of us who indulge in such things also really strongly feel that real child pornography is gross and wrong.
Just because I find white women to be unattractive doesn't mean I think every dude who gets off to erotic photos of white women needs therapy.
Carl: What bugs me is that, according to the "law", Handley's legally able to buy the manga online, but if it gets delivered to his house, then he's doing something illegal. So the feds should either shut down the vendor or let him buy whatever the fuck he wants, since it's basically just entrapment, otherwise. And they're just really looking for people to make examples of, like when they busted Tommy Chong. It has nothing to do with actually pursuing people who are real threats.
Anyway, since someone's looking for an argument to "defend" lolicon, here it is: Why is someone considered "normal" for looking at sites like Stileproject.com and rotten.com [Hell, I knew a Christian chick who bragged about checking out the latter link.] where they got stuff like scat, golden showers, and other sick shit[I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSDsu98SoTg about sums it up.]; but if they go look at a drawing, then they're suddenly degenerates? Sounds like a double standard to me…
Goober: My problem is that an actual criminal gets a shorter sentence than said person.
wah said:
"Milo, I think your assessment of "people who look at 2-Dimensional lolita pornography need therapy" is misguided because a lot of us have no interest in real children at all. I sure don't. I do, however, like cute, 2D characters, and as such I do buy erotic doujinshi and magazines featuring such characters. Most of us who indulge in such things also really strongly feel that real child pornography is gross and wrong."
We probably agree more than you think, wah. That wasn't my final reasoned conclusion on the matter, since I'm nowhere near qualified to make such a conclusion. I was just throwing it out there as a possibility, or as a possibility of the sort of thing that can be discussed, as opposed to the simplistic "it's either illegal or perfectly okay" paradigm.
Take, for example, the foot fetish. I don't understand it firsthand, but a lot of general research and investigation has been done on it, and it has pretty much been accepted by mainstream society, at least enough that it can be discussed on daytime TV by Quentin Tarantino without controversy.
Lolicon pornography is definitely a fetish, and more so than other fetishes, it is disturbing, because of the OBVIOUS fact that it involves drawings of children. It is also more controversial because we know for a fact that pedophiles have enjoyed it, and there's an OBVIOUS similarity in the subject matter of the fetish and the crime. This is why I think it needs to be discussed and looked into more. Again, I'm not saying it should be banned or people should be imprisoned. Maybe people SHOULD just be left alone with it. It's hard to say because there is so little investigation on the subject.
Again, to disregard lolicon as no different than having a aesthetic preference for white women is either irresponsible or moronic.
'What specifically is pornographic drawings of presexual human beings supposed to protest?'
I'm just guessing, but I'd assume societal constructs of adulthood and adult sexuality?
"I'm just guessing, but I'd assume societal constructs of adulthood and adult sexuality?"
I'd have to see some evidence that such was the intended purpose of the artwork in question in order to believe that.
I think that there's a problem with the idea that the Funimation incident shows that fans won't be satisfied even if given what they claim to want.
A leak, as a problem, is inherently different from a fansub. Fansubs are a problem when downloaded by large numbers of people; it's really the prevalence of fansubs that's a problem. Having one person download a fansub would be no problem at all. On the other hand, the main problem with a leak is that it happens at all–it's true that the leak then gets put on Bittorrent, but ultimately a leak is a problem caused by one person.
So it's quite possible that fans (meaning 99% of all fans) would be satisfied by getting what they asked for, and that it was still leaked anyway by one of the remaining 1%.
Calling people pedophiles for enjoying moe is like calling Daryl a murderer and a rapist for enjoying gekiga and Kawajiri.
Neither makes much sense to me. People's fantasy lives are usually quite different from how they lead their real life.
But people tend not to think quite straight when the issue is THE CHIIIIILDREN OH GOD THE CHIIIIIIIILDREN.
-Kamon
Calling people pedophiles for enjoying moe is like calling Daryl a murderer and a rapist for enjoying gekiga and Kawajiri . . . People's fantasy lives are usually quite different from how they lead their real life.
Only because there's no way I could do it without getting caught. Because otherwise, you have my assurance that I would be murdering the FUCK out of people. And dogs. Not stray dogs, mind you. Other people's dogs. I would totally use like, stealth camo or some Kawajiri Murder Master Ability and splatter them all over the place as they're being taken for a walk before screaming out the lyrics to "Satsugai," and nobody would suspect me because I'd be all Kawajiri Action Man. God, I hate dogs. Also, kids.
What was my point? Oh yeah, the only reason people's fantasy lives are different from reality is because we lack the ability to pull off our fantasy lives in reality. Anyone who claims any different is lying, possibly because the steps they need to take in order to make their fantasy lives reality entail having that deniability. So don't leave your kids with wildarmsheero, because he might have already figured out the escape route. Step one of his plan was to distance himself from the fact that he really likes Wild Arms and Gundam Wing. But I remember, sir. I REMEMBER.
Meh…while there may be a kernel of truth to that, I don't necessarily buy it wholesale. As much as I'm amused by watching animated or prosthetic heads explode, I'd be horrified if I saw something like that in real life. And despite your e-bravado, I'm guessing you might be too. 😛
Do a person's fantasies indicate they're capable of doing–or have a desire to do–said things in real life? This is one of those slippery-slope arguments that not even the most brilliant of psychologists could ever definitively answer. But I think I could comfortably say, in the vast majority of cases…nah.
-Kamon
Kamon,
You're ignoring a very big part of the equation: the sexual impulse. Deriving entertainment from watching Kenshiro explode people's heads does not entail a physiological, sexual response. If a person masturbates to fictional images of children, it's probably fair game to assert that said person is a pedophile. It's also fairly safe to assume that most people would do anything to avoid having such a label attached to them, since the word has been demonized and conflated with child molestation.
Frankly, it's none of my business what a person thinks or fantasizes about in the privacy of their own home, just as long as no humans or animals are harmed in the process. But denial and rationalization can be symptoms of a much larger problem, and lovers of lolicon erotic artwork seem to display both in spades.
You're ignoring a very big part of the equation: the sexual impulse.
Hm? Some of the stuff that Daryl likes includes rape.
Some (including me) believe that rape is an expression of violence rather than sexual impulse, but now we's goin' WAY off topic.
How'bout that new Yamato trailer? Ain't that sumpin'?
How does liking anime schoolgirls=being a pedo anyway? Are shows like Lucky Star and Hidamari Sketch the tool of the devil?
Anyway I wanted to say as an artist myself, I feel that any art no matter how distasteful it may be should not be banned because art in general is the type of thing that never really hurts any one. I mean I don't think I've ever drawn anything of a distasteful nature.
Also to those that have kids, yes I understand you want to protect children from those that may potentially harm them but going after those who may look at artwork of 2D girls is not the way. Some of us actually can't stand real children anyway.
My point is that the parts of our human brains that are hard-wired to react to violence are not the same parts that are hard-wired to react to sexual stimuli, unless the brain in question is severely dysfunctional.
Cheering at the saw-blade decapitation in Commando is not biologically equivalent to masturbating to a Lucky Star doujinshi. One respond is coded to aggression, the fight-or-flight response. The other is coded to the reproductive urge. Attempting to equate the two behaviors is a deflection.
"How does liking anime schoolgirls=being a pedo anyway? Are shows like Lucky Star and Hidamari Sketch the tool of the devil?"
It's not, but that's why I didn't say "liking anime schoolgirls". I said "masturbating to fictional images of children". Don't try to twist my words. I'm talking about a very specific behavior here. I'm not talking about watching Azumanga Daioh, or laughing at Yotsuba's antics in Yotsuba&!. Neither of those should be considered taboo. It's only when the sexual impulse is applied – a sexual impulse directed at fictional characters that do not possess mature sexual characteristics – that the behavior becomes worrisome.
It's the combination of an adult sexual impulse with the image of children that skeeves people out. It's not one or the other separately. It's the combination.
You see, people just have NO memory, only the 'now' matters to them.
So quickly have the Clown Pistol Murders been forgotten.
Clearly Daryl's true nature has been shown.
I know Daryl traveled back in time to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald. Not to shut him up but because of his burning hatred of people with Three First Names.
I know because I traveled back in time to try and stop him, but I failed.
Wait…wait…*I* have Three First Names! He's coming after ME!
"How'bout that new Yamato trailer? Ain't that sumpin'?"
Not really. Space opera anime is a dead genre that will never ever come back.
>>One respond is coded to aggression, the fight-or-flight response.
Wait, are you trying to suggest that the urge to kill someone and get violent is better than the urge to make love with another human being–of age or not?
I dunno, if you ask me the part of the brain that enjoys graphic drawn depictions of violence is far more twisted than the part of the brain that enjoys drawn depictions of sex with fictional underage characters.
Goober: "If a person masturbates to fictional images of children, it's probably fair game to assert that said person is a pedophile."
What if they get hard during a Larry Clark movie?
"Cheering at the saw-blade decapitation in Commando is not biologically equivalent to masturbating to a Lucky Star doujinshi."
Those idiots who engaged in random shootings after playing GTA would argue otherwise.
My point (way back up there somewhere) was that, I guess, if you squint, Japanese men sexualising children and obsessing over worlds filled with doe-eyed innocents could be seen as a way to rebel against the strict hierarchy of their society and it's ideas of manhood (as in 'coming of age') and adult behaviour. Keyword here is rebel, not protest. I don't actually think anyone decided that they'd draw a picture of Konata having sex with Kazama Kiryu as a Hard Hitting Political message.
That being said, I bet there's a dojin out there somewhere called 'protest songs', it just has that ring to it.
Also, just a random point on the subject of fandom being (too) accepting of lolicon – it does amuse me that no one ever seems to think that Kawajiri (etc) Fan = Rapist, but yet Strike Witches/Lucky Star/K-On fan seems to necessarily = pedo.
The flurry of recent highly-defensive postings aren't very encouraging.
If your response to this discussion is "what about THESE PEOPLE, they're worse than us and no one does anything about it," that demonstrates you're more interested in simply making excuses than saying anything qualitative about your fetish.
So we're back to the "shut up and don't say anything negative about it" dichotomy.
"I'm not talking about watching Azumanga Daioh, or laughing at Yotsuba's antics in Yotsuba&!. Neither of those should be considered taboo. It's only when the sexual impulse is applied – a sexual impulse directed at fictional characters that do not possess mature sexual characteristics – that the behavior becomes worrisome.
It's the combination of an adult sexual impulse with the image of children that skeeves people out. It's not one or the other separately. It's the combination."
Couldn't have said it better myself.
"Wait, are you trying to suggest that the urge to kill someone and get violent is better than the urge to make love with another human being–of age or not?"
No, what I'm saying is that bringing up violence in media is a dodge. It's not a comparable reaction. It only serves to cloud the issue.
Look at the words you're using. Legally speaking, an adult cannot "make love" with a child, because a child is legally incapable of consent.
"What if they get hard during a Larry Clark movie?"
Larry Clark's films are immune to obscenity prosecutions because you can make the case that they have politial, artistic, or social value. As for "getting hard" to them, that's not the issue here. It's not the physiological reaction that can be troublesome, it's the action that accompanies it. That's why I said specifically, if you masturbate to fictional images of children, you are probably a pedophile. That statement includes women, too. It's not just men that do that sort of thing.
"Those idiots who engaged in random shootings after playing GTA would argue otherwise."
I already addressed when I said "unless the brain in question is severely dysfunctional." Let's stop dancing around the issue here. The issue is not violence in the media, or whether violent media predisposes people to be violent, etc. We're talking about the disputed legality of lolicon erotic artwork, about the people that consume it, about their motivations, and about whether any thing can or should be done regarding the phenomena.
"Japanese men sexualising children and obsessing over worlds filled with doe-eyed innocents could be seen as a way to rebel against the strict hierarchy of their society and it's ideas of manhood (as in 'coming of age') and adult behaviour. Keyword here is rebel, not protest."
That I can believe, although I find it disturbing that they would use depictions of powerless children to establish their feelings of potency and sexual power. That said, I don't think there should be a law against it unless an accompanying risk of harm could be demonstrated.
'I find it disturbing that they would use depictions of powerless children to establish their feelings of potency and sexual power'
I kind of meant that they do it in order to eschew the traditional ideas of potency or and sexual power.
Maybe.
"Space opera anime is a dead genre that will never ever come back."
Oh, sorry Mr. Overlord, the entire industry will make a point of checking with you about that before ever trying it again.
Daryl: I took your suggestion and read up on Mark Merlino. What I found, well… I don't see anything that sets me fanwank bells a-ringing, apart from what can be taken from Crush Yiff Destroy. What's the problem?
That's Sir Mr. Overlord to you. The failure of Tytania was pretty bad and I don't see much else on the horizon.
Okay, you guys touched on it in the show, but let me spell out what the deal is with rights for stuff like Super Robot Wars and Capcom vs Tatsunoko.
Just pick up one of the Gatchaman DVDs. Don't pretend you don't own at least a few of them. Now you will notice that it says Gatchaman is (c) 1972 Tatsunoko. ADV Films do not enter into the equation, nor does the shambling zombie ghost of Sandy Frank. Get it?
Okay, now look at your copy of Aura Battler Dunbine volume 12. I have one, and I'm sure you all do as well, right? Anyway, it says (c) SUNRISE / SOTSU AGENCY. ADV does not own the rights to Dunbine across all media. They just licensed it for DVD release.
In other words, negotiation with U.S. companies simply does not enter into the picture with a release like Super Robot Wars or Capcom vs Tatsunoko. When Funimation releases the new Evangelion movie, they didn't have to dicker with ADV or Manga Entertainment over the use of the characters. When a U.S. company licenses an anime series for broadcast or DVD release, their rights do not extend any further than that. When Bandai released that wretched Lupin the 3rd PS2 game, Geneon/Phuuz did not have any say. Bandai Entertainment does not generally get involved with localization of Gundam video games. Funimation does get involved with Dragonball Z video games, but that is because they have (very, very intelligently) negotiated for rights to help produce games based on the franchise. This strategy has made them a shitload of money.
There are a couple of very notable exceptions to this– World Events Productions seems to have Voltron/Golion locked down, and Harmony Gold won that lawsuit against Big West that grants them broad use of Macross stuff, and Fred Ladd's Delphi Productions owns the name GIGANTOR (but not the original property, which is why we got Tetsujin 28 released under its original title while Ben Dunn drew shitty Gigantor comics).
The reason that a property like Super Robot Wars hasn't been released is because it would involve dealing with several JAPANESE companies. Sunrise, Toei, Dynamic Planning, Tatsunoko, etc. These companies are all quite comfortable doing business in Japan, but we all know that this isn't the case overseas. I think a release is certainly feasible, but as has been noted, it would need to sell well to earn enough money to make it a success, and these games aren't built for U.S. mass appeal.
The reason we've gotten Capcom vs. Tatsunoko fairly easily because the characters belong to ONE company, and I'm pretty sure Capcom is basically handling everything for the localization. You will notice that some famous Tatsunoko characters, like Speed Racer and Hakushon Daimaoh, are absent from the U.S. release because other companies have all-media licenses for them.
Mike: so if it wasn't for that damned American gaming public, it could probably be feasible to release a non-OG Super Robot Wars game outside Japan, with enough money, time and… ah screw it.
Oh, just as a side note, Speed Racer isn't in the Japanese game, and considering what you said about the rights regarding that show, he probably won't be in the American release either.